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HomeMy WebLinkAbout10.20.04 Work Session Minutes CITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP THOROUGHFARE PLAN MINUTES October 20, 2004 1. CALL TO ORDER Mayor Ristow called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. Council Present: Ristow, Cordes, Fogarty, Soderberg Absent: Fitch Planning Commission Present: Rotty, Barker, Larson Staff Present: David Urbia, City Administrator; Kevin Carroll, Community Development Director; Lee Mann, City Engineer; Lee Smick, City Planner; Jim Atkinson, Assistant City Planner; Tina Schwanz, Planning Intern; Cynthia Muller, Executive Assistant Also Present: Shelly Johnson, Bonestroo Traffic Engineer; Ben Meyer, Bonestroo Engineer 2. APPROVE AGENDA MOTION by Fogarty, second by Soderberg to approve the agenda. APIF, MOTION CARRIED. 3. DISCUSSION OF PROPOSED THOROUGHFARE PLAN The Thoroughfare Plan covers the area south of 195th Street and east of Akin Road. This includes properties H, Ql, g and R on the MUSA map. Property Ql was formerly owned by Mr. Bernard Murphy, and has been purchased by Giles Properties. There is a joint resolution for annexation with Empire Township for property 8. The Thoroughfare Plan is included in the Comprehensive Plan. The current draft of the Thoroughfare Plan shows revisions due to comments on the initial draft. The proposed north-south road goes from 20gth Street north to Diamond Path. Lakeville has a development planned for the area north of 1 70th Street and south of 1 60th Street. In this development, Diamond Path would be extended from l60th Street south to l70th Street. This north-south road would direct traffic from Akin and have no driveways from 208th Street to 195th Street. It will have to curve around the wetlands north of 195th Street. The connection to 198th Street is difficult topographically. Staff removed this connection from the plan. The plan also shows Akin being re-routed. Traffic going south on Akin, would have to turn on Devonport, go to the north-south road, and then turn again onto Akin. Akin would not be closed, but re-routed. Without doing this, there would be a dangerous Y intersection. As the area is developed, there will also be residential streets. The plan shows major routes only. At the Council meeting, Council expressed some concerns. There were four Council Workshop Thoroughfare Plan October 20, 2004 Page 2 issues to be discussed. The first issue is there is a road through the Manley development that would create a four-way intersection at Embers Avenue and 19Sth Street. A second issue concerns the 198th Street connection. This was taken out and it was discussed whether or not this should be put back in the plan. The third issue was whether there were any wetlands that would cause the north-south road to be re-routed. The fourth issue was regarding the intersection at Akin, Devonport and the north-south road. City Engineer Mann discussed the reconfiguration of the intersection at Akin and 208th Street and the north-south road. He believes those connections can be made and the north-south road routed around the wetlands. There are no detrimental issues with the new alignment of Akin Road and no major issues with the wetlands going north to 195th Street. There will be a curve north of 19Sth Street to cross the area. Beyond the curve, the north-south road would stay next to the railroad right-of-way. Councilmember Cordes asked how 1 89th Street out of Meadow Creek would affect the wetlands. Staff stated it would skirt along the edge of the wetlands. Mayor Ristow asked about access to Riverbend. Staff stated there is significant ponding in that area, so there is no anticipated connection to the north-south road. However, there have been discussions to make a connection north of the bridge. The park in Riverside West would not be affected by the north-south road. Regarding the connection of 198th Street and Akin, staff had some questions regarding the economic sense of that connection. There is a significant grade difference and wetlands. We need to balance the need and economic impact to the environment. It was determined that connection is not critical. It can be done, if it is determined to be important. Traffic Engineer Johnson stated they looked at the area below 19Sth Street. Traffic was estimated to determine volumes. When looking at the difficulty of building 198th Street, it was determined the system would still work without that connection. The most important connection to Akin is 203rd Street, as that does proceed to Pilot Knob. As far as the connection at Embers and 19Sth, that connection is important because the spacing along 19Sth works beautifully with Pilot Knob, Akin, Embers, and the north- south arterial. People south of 195th in that little corner that have business on Embers will use 195th. Those that don't will use 19Sth to Akin or Pilot Knob. If someone wants to visit someone on Embers, they will use Embers, but the numbers will not be significant. Traffic Engineer Johnson stated we do not want to offset the intersection as it will create more problems when 19Sth carries more vehicles. It creates capacity and safety issues. The road to the south curves from that intersection and only serves a small pocket of people. In the 2030 Met Council draft plan, one of their priorities to cities is saying develop connections between the cities that help alleviate major carriers so the short trips are not on the major carriers. The north-south route is a perfect example. City Engineer Mann stated the county has identified 19Sth as a county road and they will have a say as to where we make the access connections and the county will have to approve those connections. City Administrator Urbia asked if at some point a stop sign will be needed on Embers north of 19Sth Street. City Engineer Mann replied yes, ifthe warrants are met. Staff routinely reviews intersections for stop sign warrants as requests are received. City Administrator Urbia asked if stop signs would change the traffic pattern. Traffic Engineer Johnson replied one stop sign does not change a lot of patterns, but it will change some. They look at the intersections of collectors or arterials, as those normally require all-way type control first. He did not see the volumes on Embers changing a lot from what they are today. Council Workshop Thoroughfare Plan October 20, 2004 Page 3 Councilmember Fogarty had a concern with the Manley development and having one access. Traffic Engineer Johnson stated you can have one way in and out depending on the number of units. If there are 75-100 units there should be two accesses for emergencies. There can be a temporary access point on 195th Street until the north-south road is built. City Engineer Mann noted one plan from the Manley development shows a temporary access. Staff is also discussing an emergency access. The Manley development will contain 146 single family homes. Councilmember Soderberg noted the developer is planning a two-year phase. The first phase would be from 195th Street to 203rd Street. Mr. John Anderson, Giles Properties, stated their goal is to have the north- south connection from 195th Street to 203rd by 2007. The second year would be from 203rd Street to Akin. They are developing the Murphy property and have been meeting with the Manley development. Mr. James Munro, 18863 Embers Avenue, disagreed with people taking a left on 195th Street. He saw a straight route down Embers. Over 48% ofthe people on Embers speed. That is 587 vehicles a day over the speed limit. There are kids trying to cross over to the sidewalk. The City needs to consider the children and pedestrians before they put more cars down the road. He felt the main collector should go in first otherwise all the cars would go down Embers. He has been complaining for two years about Embers and it has only gotten worse. There has been a stop sign installed, which has slowed people down. Speed limit signs did not help. Traffic Engineer Johnson stated if the intersection were to be offset, people will still use Embers if they want to go into that area. Embers is a minor collector and minor collectors are designed to hold more traffic. Mr. Munro stated the minor collector has not done anything for the safety of the pedestrians. There is no sidewalk on his side, so how do his children cross the street. They cannot ticket anyone under 35 mph. He stated the Police Chief believes the speed limit should be 25 mph in a residential area. Instead it is 35 - 40 mph on Embers. Mayor Ristow stated even if the intersection is offset, traffic will still use Embers ifthey want. Mr. Munro asked about dead ending Embers. City Engineer Mann stated there is a potential for a stop sign at 193rd Street and Embers. Traffic Engineer Johnson stated that that section of Embers provides a function of collecting all the residential trips in that area east of Pilot Knob and allows them to move north-south. An area with that many residences demands a collector. A major portion ofthe traffic on Embers, live in that area. Mr. Munro would like to see other roads built first. Otherwise, traffic will have no where to go other than Embers. Councilmember Soderberg asked if as the north-south road is finished, and 189th Street is continued if that will alleviate some traffic on Embers. Traffic Engineer Johnson replied some traffic will use the 1 89th Street connection to 195th and maybe TH3. That will help the situation. A minor collector can hold 2,000 cars/day. A major collector could hold 2,000 - 20,000 cars/day. Mr. Munro sated other cities require sidewalks on both sides of the road. When he moved in, he thought it would be a cul-de- sac, now it is a minor freeway. Mr. Greg Wendlandt, 19344 Embers Avenue, was concerned with the dialogue at the October 4 Council meeting and tonight. All conversation has been about northbound traffic, and nothing about southbound traffic. Weare supposed to be having a retail development coming in the Spruce Street development. A lot of traffic from north Farmington will be coming south on Embers to the new major collector. Traffic Engineer Johnson stated the two major north-south paths used will be Pilot Knob and the Council Workshop Thoroughfare Plan October 20, 2004 Page 4 new north-south road. Mayor Ristow asked if the alignment north of 195th does not get developed, will traffic take Embers. Traffic Engineer Johnson stated they will take 195th and go to Pilot Knob or take Akin. Mr. Wendlandt did not see Embers being a centrally located thoroughfare for the residential areas to get to the future development. Traffic Engineer Johnson stated until the north-south road is built, traffic will use Akin. Mr. Wendlandt stated he would not go to Pilot Knob, it would be more convenient to take Embers to the new collector. Traffic Engineer Johnson stated the shortest trip time wise would be Pilot Knob. People living along Embers will use Embers. That is why it is a minor collector. City Engineer Mann stated once there is significant retail in Farmington, it could change the traffic patterns. Ms. Lynn Jarvis, 18849 Embers Avenue, wanted the Council to keep in mind they are a neighborhood and want safety. Traffic will get worse. She has to wait 2-3 minutes to get out of her driveway. Speed is also an issue. She wanted Council to take this into consideration. Mr. Greg Spade, 19496 Embers Avenue, they are looking at a county road that will attach to TH3. He was concerned with the extension of Embers into the new development. He asked if there was a playground planned for this development and if there was some consideration for that. Staff replied there will be a large park in the southeast corner. There will be a walkway to the park. Mr. Spade was concerned with the extension of Embers and the intersection. People are concerned with not having lighting on 195th Street, and he sees an issue with residential people trying to get across Embers Avenue. Mr. Dave Pritzlaff, 20255 Akin Road, asked if there is a connection with Embers, can a sign be placed saying no thru traffic. New residents will think they cannot get through and turn on 195th Street. Traffic Engineer Johnson stated Embers is not an MSA route, so the City can put up any signage they want. City Engineer Mann stated the people not familiar with the area are more likely to stay on a county road. It can be done, but it may not help. Mr. Pritzlaffnoted in Rogers there is a blue sign in a neighborhood saying 25 mph with a yellow sign above and below saying children present. Traffic Engineer Johnson stated ifit is not a school zone or a private street, then someone is breaking the law. Blue signs are destination signs. Cities cannot legislate speed limits unless in a school zone. That is up to the State, and the State cannot go below 30 mph unless it is a scenic byway. Mr. Pritzlaffasked if the Council can set a speed limit if there is a significant problem. Traffic Engineer Johnson replied no, the State sets speed limits. Mr. Pritzlaff agreed with removing the 198th Street connection to Akin Road. He asked if stop signs could be installed at intersections when the roads are first built. Traffic Engineer Johnson replied reviewing requests for traffic control changes requires doing traffic counts and other things. The City does not have enough manpower to look at every intersection every six months. They rely on the citizens to request looking at an intersection. Mr. Andy Schultheis, Embers Avenue, stated the citizens are saying Embers Avenue is bad. He asked why not dead end Embers. Council is not considering the residents that are already there. Traffic needs to be cut down. Traffic does not take 195th, they go down Embers faster and faster. The people speeding do not live on Embers. He feels the City is messing up Embers Avenue. He liked the 2007 outlook for the north-south road, Council Workshop Thoroughfare Plan October 20, 2004 Page 5 but will it really be 2007, probably not. The 19Sth Street connection would alleviate traffic on Embers. Traffic would go to Akin Road. Councilmember Soderberg asked if 19Sth goes through, how much would the traffic change. Traffic Engineer Johnson replied their concern was whether two connections would serve the traffic volumes from the new development. It was determined the 19Sth connection is not needed, 19Sth Street and 203rd Street would be enough. He did not think the 19Sth Street connection would alleviate traffic on Embers. It would reduce the trips on 19Sth Street. Ms. Kathy Engebretson, Dallas Avenue, noted option 1 is being considered off of 20Sth Street. She was concerned about option 2, as when the Murphy property is developed there will be increased traffic. Her concern was keeping the buses off of Dallas Avenue. If option 2 is chosen, make it a one-way going north only. Traffic Engineer Johnson stated the City can work with the school district as to which streets are used. Ms. Engebretson would like to keep the buses on option 1. Traffic Engineer Johnson stated option 1 is the preference. Option 2 would be a minor collector. Councilmember Soderberg stated if Dallas is built across the river, it would be a local street, not a collector. City Engineer Mann stated if option 1 does not happen, option 2 would be a minor collector. Ms. Engebretson stated if that does happen, it would be nice to run it along behind the houses and take out the two ball diamonds. Mr. Frank Blundetto, Manley Land Development, stated the plat is being reviewed. They are willing to take on responsibility for the north-south road development. They have discussed the development with Giles Properties and Seed-Genstar. They are looking to the City for direction. They see this as a viable thoroughfare plan that makes this area marketable. They would like to see the thoroughfare plan adopted. Councilmember Soderberg liked the east-west connection and supported 19Sth Street. He likes the plan and option 1 for the 20Sth Street connection. Councilmember Cordes also liked this plan better than the original. She agreed the 19Sth Street connection is vital to get traffic from Pilot Knob to the north-south corridor. Councilmember Fogarty would not demand that 19Sth be a minor collector, but would be comfortable with it being a local road. She would like to see one more way out of that development. She is sympathetic to the residents on Embers. The City does have to have a functioning roadway system. The professionals do not believe this will increase traffic on Embers. Mayor Ristow agreed with 19Sth Street to carry the traffic volume. Community Development Director Carroll stated they took 19Sth Street off as a collector, and discussed the need for a connection in the future. The plat shows an extra-wide lot in that area that would provide the opportunity for a local road. Staff felt this was a good compromise. Regarding access out of the Manley Development, in addition to the access across from Embers, there was also a temporary access to 19Sth. The developer saw 19Sth as redundant. It is an extra expense. Councilmember Cordes saw 19Sth as getting traffic to travel east and west and Embers would terminate at 19Sth. Staffnoted it could route some traffic to Akin. Residents wanted traffic diverted to the north-south route. Councilmember Cordes noted if traffic goes south on Akin, that is re-routed. Those traveling south on Embers would take a left to the new north-south corridor. 203rd Street would work the same. Engineering will review the concept. Council Workshop Thoroughfare Plan October 20, 2004 Page 6 Mr. Dirk Rotty, Planning Commission, stated the Planning Commission did not like the original concept and the revised plan addresses the issues. They agreed with Manley Development and staff that an outlot should be left open for a connection to Akin Road. Having the north-south road was a good idea. Adjustments will come later. They had similar questions with 203rd Street. They understood the need for 203rd Street and agreed with the recommendations. They preferred option 1 from 20Sth Street. They discussed the re-routing of Akin Road. It would make it safer and give traffic a way to get to the north-south road. He agreed a transportation plan is needed to develop this area. Mr. Ben Barker, Planning Commission, agreed it was important to have a Thoroughfare Plan. The developers need to know the layout. Mr. Todd Larson, Planning Commission, liked the plan and agreed with option 1. He felt the re-routing on Akin Road was more favorable to fet people out of town instead of into town. He would like that reviewed closer. On 203T Street, he does not like the curves. They will be lucky to get one bridge over the railroad tracks so he sees the 197th and 203rd connection not being an issue. He wants something approved, so they can move forward with the plats. Regarding Akin Road, he felt it will make it difficult for people on Akin to get to town. He felt more time was needed to study this intersection. If we want to promote Spruce Street and the downtown, we should make it easier to get to downtown, not harder. He was not saying to hold up the plan because of this intersection. Mayor Ristow felt it was easier to put in 19Sth Street now or put up a sign alerting residents to a possible through street right away. Mr. Rotty felt the Devonport intersection would be safer and there would be more people using the collector and Pilot Knob. He did not think it would inhibit the majority of people coming into town. 19Sth Street is not off the books, the outlot is there. Ifafter review it is felt to be necessary, it can be done. Councilmember Cordes felt they needed to look at 19Sth Street as a minor collector. Mr. Frank Blundetto, Manley Development, stated the plat shows they will build a stub road with curb and gutter. A lot will not be available. The City asked for a 60 ft. right-of- way. Mayor Ristow stated the City would pay for the portion of the road going through City property. City Engineer Mann stated if the road is built, it will function the way it will function whether it is called a local road or a minor collector. If it is shown on the plan, that raises it to a higher priority of ultimately being built. There will be no houses through the wetland, so there will be no driveways. Mr. Blundetto stated they need to be aware of the grade difference from Akin. Traffic Engineer Johnson stated if a feasibility study is done, it may show it is cost prohibitive. Mr. Blundetto stated there is a tremendous difference in the grade from 19Sth Street and 203Td Street. Staff noted there are grade issues with both areas. City Administrator Urbia asked if staff should draw 19Sth in or leave it out. Mayor Ristow stated it is easier to do it now with the help of a developer, than to put it on the residents later. If it is put in now there are no surprises. He would like to see 19Sth Street Council Workshop Thoroughfare Plan October 20, 2004 Page 7 developed with the Manley property. City Engineer Mann stated staff will look at the connection and the cost. City Planner Smick asked if 198th Street should be shown as a minor collector with a 70 ft. right-of-way. A local street would not be shown on the plan and have a 60 ft. right-of- way. Councilmember Soderberg was comfortable with having 198th as a local street. City Planner Smick stated then they will not add a line on the plan as it will be a local street. Community Development Director Carroll stated the local street will be part of the preliminary plat. Staffwill not change any lines on the Thoroughfare Plan now. It will be brought to Council on November 1,2004. A line will not be shown for 198th Street as it will be a local street not a minor collector. The local street will be addressed at the time of platting. Councilmember Cordes stated if it is going to function how it will function, why not recognize it as to how it will function. Traffic Engineer Johnson stated the volumes are estimated around 1,000, which is at the collector level. That is above a local street. Community Development Director Carroll stated the current document as is will be on the November 1 agenda. City Planner Smick asked if Councilmember Cordes wants 198th shown as a minor collector. The plat shows a 60 ft. right-of-way and a local street. The developer would have to make changes to the plat prior to the November 9 Planning Commission meeting. Councilmember Soderberg noted there will be no homes on the street so the traffic will not negatively impact anyone regardless of the size of the road. City Engineer Mann noted some collectors are 32 ft. wide. With no homes on this street, that may make sense. Community Development Director Carroll stated there are a number of people not here, because they thought there would not be a connection to Akin. The people that were at the Planning Commission meeting will probably be at the November 1 Council Meeting. He understood Council wanted 198th Street shown as a minor collector. The minor collector to 19Sth Street would also remain. City Planner Smick asked if 198th Street will be 32 ft. wide or 38 ft. wide. City Engineer Mann replied 32 ft. 4. ADOURN MOTION by Soderberg, second by Fogarty to adjourn at 9: 10 p.m. APIF, MOTION CARRIED. Respectfully submitted, 7~~~ /'Y)~eYc.-/ Cynthia Muller Executive Assistant