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HomeMy WebLinkAbout06.23.03 Special Council Minutes JOINT CITY COUNCIL/CASTLE ROCK TOWN BOARD MEETING ASH STREET PROJECT MINUTES June 23, 2003 Mayor Ristow called the meeting to order for the Council at 8:00 p.m. Present: Ristow, Fogarty, Soderberg Absent: Cordes, Fitch Also Present: Joel Jamnik, City Attorney; Ed Shukle, City Administrator; Lee Mann, City Engineer; Cynthia Muller, Executive Assistant MOTION by Soderberg, second by Fogarty to approve the agenda. APIF, MOTION CARRIED. Chair Becker called the meeting to order for the Castle Rock Town Board at 8:07 p.m. Present: Becker, Neal, Wiedder, Lamb, Rother Also Present: Mike Foertsch, Township Engineer Audience: Commissioner Joe Harris, Vern Johnson, Colin Garvey, Aaron Tinklenberg The city recently had a meeting with the county regarding the CIP process. They discussed projects the city would like on the CIP. They also discussed timing, funding, etc. for the Ash Street project. Due to funding consideration and budget considerations the County suggested putting this on the 2005 CIP. The timing works better for 2005, as it would give the City lead time for designing. Ideally, if the project would be done in 2004, the city should have already started design. The costs for moving the project to 2005 have been factored in for the numbers presented at the meeting. Councilmember Soderberg asked if 2005 fits well with other projects scheduled for the city? City Engineer Mann replied the second phase of Main Street is scheduled for 2004. This could be the major project for 2005. It depends on when the 195th Street project goes. One year farther away does not hurt the city from a financial standpoint. Councilmember Fogarty asked what the chances are of this getting pushed back again? City Engineer Mann replied that is up to the people here tonight. Mayor Ristow stated at the last meeting there were some things to be worked out between the Engineers. City Engineer Mann replied they have reviewed the items and agreed on the allocations and what the cost will be. The issue is how does it get funded? City Engineer Mann then asked if there were any issues with the timing? Mr. Neal replied he would bet the project would go by 2006 with the county, but it has to be organized and ready to go. City Engineer Mann stated the County wants to see a resolution by August 1 about projects that jurisdictions want in the County CIP. This has to be either a joint resolution or two separate resolutions. Mayor Ristow stated Commissioner Joe Harris is here and has been very helpful and proactive to try to move this project forward. He asked Commissioner Harris if we are on track. Commissioner Harris stated you can never guarantee anything. But if these two governmental units can get together and come to an agreement, the county will be there to help them get the project done. We all know it has been on the Joint City Council/Castle Rock Town Board Meeting June 23, 2003 Page 2 drawing board for 20 years. It is not the county that has been holding up the show. He would agree with county staff and with City Engineer Mann that anything before 2005 at this late a time just is not going to happen. The drawings, plans, and specifications will not be done. Otherwise you will drag construction over the winter. The project should start in the spring of 2005 and complete the first coat of blacktop by the time winter hits in 2005. Commissioner Harris stated that there is no way that starting today we can have that project done in 2004. Councilmember Fogarty asked if we are in a stronger position if we came up with a resolution the sooner the better? Commissioner Harris replied yes. Mayor Ristow asked where MnDOT sits? City Engineer Mann replied the city has approached MnDOT several times in the past. In the past they agreed to help fund some of this. The last time MnDOT agreed to participate and the project did not go forward, they asked to not go through this again until we have a project. The next time the City goes back to MnDOT, there should be a resolution in hand and hopefully a CIP document from the County that shows the project scheduled. Mayor Ristow stated even without MnDOT, if the three organizations agree, MnDOT still has to agree because a certain portion is their property. City Engineer Mann replied they would be hard pressed to say they were not responsible for their portion. MnDOT will be subject to their own issues as far as the budget is concerned. MnDOT's Ash Street cost allocation should not be a major ticket item for MnDOT. Mayor Ristow asked if MnDOT could hold the project up ifthey were short? City Engineer Mann replied depending on how much money they are looking at contributing, it might not be worth holding up the project. Maybe they could refund the City at a later date if funding is an issue for MnDOT. Ifwe have a resolution before August 1,2003, we can get this going right away. Councilmember Soderberg asked if 2005 was a realistic time frame to get this all done? City Engineer Mann replied the city can definitely get this done in 2005. City Engineer Mann stated the majority ofthe work that has occurred since the last meeting has been concerning pond 8 which is located in Castle Rock. A document outlining the costs was presented. The costs have been estimated to include 2005 costs. The only other change is in regards to pond 8 regarding the storm sewer. the cost splits between the township and the city for pond 8 have been fine tuned. Engineer Foertsch asked ifthere were any questions on the scope of the improvements, what the streets will look like, where the water main is going, sanitary sewer? Mayor Ristow asked easement costs are $135,000? The Engineers replied that is the estimated cost. Mayor Ristow stated then the next cost is $678,000? City Engineer Mann stated the total improvement cost for pond 8 is $1,230,400 plus the $135,000. The Castle Rock allocation and the City allocation add up to those two together. Chair Becker asked ifthe easement cost is for the pond itself and the piping? Engineer Foertsch stated correct. Mayor Ristow asked how many acres are in pond 8? Engineer Foertsch stated it is approximately 10:-11 acres. Mayor Ristow asked if that was for the runoff just for the Ash Street project, or other areas? Engineer Foertsch stated the pond sizing for 8 is based on the Ash Street west drainage area which goes from the intersection ofHwy 3 and 50 to the west, area 3 which includes part of Highland Circle and that area in Farmington, area 4 which drains into area 5, and area 5 drains into pond 8 and area 8. It assumes a developed condition in area Joint City Council/Castle Rock Town Board Meeting June 23, 2003 Page 3 8 based on the township zoning. There was some discussion at the township level as far as whether it should be sized according to developed conditions or existing conditions. Mayor Ristow asked where in the vicinity of pond 8 is the Castle Rock Bank? Engineer Foertsch stated the pond can take on any shape to accommodate whatever it needs to accommodate as long as it has the volume of storage. Mayor Ristow stated from an engineer's perspective, you are confident that that pond is sizable so any of the buildings to the south are not going to get flooded out? Engineer Foertsch replied correct. Commissioner Harris stated the proposed pond 8 is the base project, so pond 5, 6, 7 and 55 are not in this project. Those ponding areas will be done as development occurs in those areas. Engineer Foertsch replied correct. Commissioner Harris stated that helps to reduce the cost ofthe project. Engineer Foertsch replied it defers the cost until sometime in the future when development happens. Pond 5 does drain to pond 8. In the past, area 55 was included in the pond 5 area, but that is being rerouted to pond 6 and 6 goes directly out to the Hwy 50 crossing, where pond 6 was also part of pond 8. By spreading the drainage out and creating more ponds, we have reduced the size of pond 8 by half from 3 or 4 years ago. Mayor Ristow asked the only pond that will be a joint venture will be pond 8? Engineer Foertsch replied correct. Mayor Ristow stated the rest will be in Castle Rock. Engineer Foertsch stated pond 5 is in the city and the rest are all separate from what we are considering this evening. Councilmember Soderberg stated pond 8 has a 30" pipe flowing into the prairie waterway. The other ponds in the township, 55, 6, and 7 are constricted so we don't overload the waterway to the north? Engineer Ferch stated he believed the restriction across 50 is 18 CFS. All of these areas contribute a total of 18 CFS. Councilmember Fogarty asked if pond 2 is gone? Engineer Mann stated at this point, the Fairgrounds have indicated they will take their water somewhere to the south. A letter was received from the Fair Board indicating they are not able to participate in the project and will route their drainage a different way. At this point pond 2 will not be built. The portion of pond 8 that would be required if some day pond 2 does get routed that way, will not be built either. In the future, if the Fairgrounds needs to connect to the system, then pond 8 will need to be expanded by the Fairgrounds, because they are opting out of the project at this time. Councilmember Soderberg noted the letter from the Fair Board also states they feel curb and gutter is not necessary along the street. Will curb and gutter be installed anyway? City Engineer Mann replied the curb and gutter aspect is being funded by the County because they are fronting the township and the County picks up 100% ofthat. Councilmember Soderberg asked if curb and gutter will restrict water running to the Fairgrounds from the street? Mayor Ristow stated the problem is the houses from the Fairgrounds to the east. The water ran back and then came into Sunnyside. Some of it used to pond where the parking was. Will that be eliminated? Engineer Mann replied the City will have to work with the fairgrounds in making sure water is not going back and forth like it used to. Staffhas discussed that with the Fairgrounds and they are fine with that. They seem willing to be an entity unto themselves as far as storm water is Joint City CounciVCastle Rock Town Board Meeting June 23, 2003 Page 4 concerned. Engineer Foertsch stated before there is any provisions in the sizing of pond 8 taken out, we need to make sure that the fairgrounds is complying with what they say they are going to do. Mr. Colin Garvey asked if construction of the ponds will start in the spring? Engineer Mann stated some of this construction lends itself to winter work. If they receive approval to move forward, the City may plan to get some of the ponding work done in the winter of 2004-2005. It makes things easier to have the pond done when running the storm sewer that way to get the project done by fall 2005. Mr. Garvey asked ifthe calculations have dewatering figured in? Engineer Foertsch stated there is a good contingency. We did not itemize the dewatering, but we are confident it should be close. It is our best estimate. Mr. Garvey noted from pond 5 to pond 8 previously the pipe was 12", now it is 18". Engineer Foertsch will check on that. There is a rate that will identify run off from pond 5 into pond 8. Whatever pipe will accommodate that rate is what it will be. Engineer Mann stated the pipe in question is not part ofthis project, but we can verify that. City Engineer Mann stated the costs for the various jurisdictions are: City $1,911,000 $693,000 - There are two components: $687,000 for pond 8 and $6,271 has to do with the Extension Office which is a very small portion of land along the fairgrounds that does drain to the street. $3,472,000 non-assessable County Township Mayor Ristow stated we are still ending this at the railroad tracks. He then asked about the Extension Office, does the cost go to the County? Engineer Foertsch stated that is what has been proposed to them. There have been discussions with their facility manager and he is aware of those costs. He is waiting to see what the jurisdictions are going to do with the project, so he can plan for it in his budget. Mayor Ristow stated so the understanding is they are not saying they are not participating. Engineer Foertsch replied, not at this point. City Engineer Mann asked how the jurisdictions feel about the numbers, or should he distribute a draft Joint Powers Agreement which talks about how we will agree to do this project. Mayor Ristow stated the figures have not changed significantly since the last meeting. Chair Becker stated the Town Board's position is that they do not have the funds to fund a project like this. So they will not financially be able to move forward with it, but they would be willing to work with the City to do whatever they can on the acquisition of easements. The township is willing to work with the City on right-of- ways, etc., but financially the township cannot be liable for any costs at this time. Mayor Ristow stated so what you are saying is you want us to buy pond 8, build it and maintain it. Chair Becker stated yes. Right now they are getting by with what they have out there, and it would not be a benefit to the township. Mayor Ristow stated that is fine, we discussed that before and with the understanding that everything on the west side ofHwy 3 within a year would have to annex and come in and on the east side the businesses Joint City Council/Castle Rock Town Board Meeting June 23, 2003 Page 5 would be charged for runoff. Engineer Foertsch stated what the township is saying is there would be zero contribution into this project at this point financially. Mayor Ristow stated he understood, but how would we charge, there must be water coming from those businesses along 50, how will that be collected? Engineer Foertsch stated it is a city obligation at this point to pick up that cost whatever it is. Mayor Ristow asked the same with sewer and water, they would be stubbed? City Engineer Mann recommended if the city is putting sewer and water through there, it would be wise to stub services at this time. Chair Becker stated the township sees that as being best for the city and are willing to work with them. City Engineer Mann stated the city would put the services in and when or if any property decides they needed those services we would work that out. Mr. Neal stated they could annex parcel by parcel. Councilmember Soderberg asked about the assessment costs and that they would be deferred until they come into the city. Is there a time limit on how long they can be deferred? Attorney Jamnik stated you cannot defer longer than the life of the bond. Ifit is a 30-year bond, you would like to start collecting 15-20 years out, otherwise the project would close when the financing is done. Mayor Ristow stated the assessment fees would be for the sewer and water lines. They would not go away. Engineer Mann asked if a connection charge could be adopted? Attorney Jamnik stated you could run the connection charge in lieu ofthe assessment, and that would be reimbursed eventually. But when you are carrying that project cost out that long with accrued interest that is gain on the debt. The connection charge cannot get close to 100% when you get out 15 years. Five or 10 years there is not a problem recovering interest. Mayor Ristow stated that is the chance you take by stubbing it. Engineer Foertsch stated the cost of putting the stub in during construction vs having to come back is a very small amount. It is a benefit to the property owner to stub it in. Mayor Ristow asked if Castle Rock is agreeable to stubbing it in? Mr. Neal replied it is the City's decision. Some may want to come in quicker than we think. Mayor Ristow stated it is easier to do it now. Mr. Neal agreed it should be stubbed in. Councilmember Soderberg asked if the pond itself will be in the city limits? Mayor Ristow stated we would have to have some easements to maintain the pond and the sewer line. City Engineer Mann stated we would have to have easements for the sewer and water and it sounds like the township is proposing we have an easement over the pond rather than the city actually owning the land. Mayor Ristow asked who will pay for it? If you are going to pay for it you have to own it don't you? Engineer Foertsch stated you can buy an easement for the pond. He does not know how the city treats their ponding areas, if they own them or have easements. Mayor Ristow stated most are allotted back to the City as outlots. City Engineer Mann replied some of the older ones have easements. It is mostly a control issue. If it is behind single family lots, we want to own it to have more control. Ifit is in the middle oftownhomes, it is run by an association, so we do not mind having an easement. That is something the City may need to consider. Councilmember Soderberg stated it may be more beneficial to own the pond because you have a couple single family homes and it is zoned commercial, you still run into the same issues with encroachment. Mayor Ristow asked if there was a problem with the city Joint City Council/Castle Rock Town Board Meeting June 23, 2003 Page 6 owning it? Chair Becker stated the township has not discussed that. Mayor Ristow stated we would have to purchase the property with the project. Is this Colin Garvey's property? City Engineer Mann stated it is partially Garvey property and partially Nicolai property. Councilmember Soderberg asked ifthe numbers assumed purchase of the property? City Engineer Mann stated based on an appraisal. Engineer Foertsch asked about the cost difference between a purchase or an easement. Attorney Jamnik stated the difference is minimal because the pond is so invasive it is almost a total take in contrast to a trail easement. Mayor Ristow asked if the easement would be deeded? Attorney Jamnik stated the easement would be permanent, but the idea when you put a pond on it, it eliminates the property owner's use of the land, so they want the full value. Councilmember Soderberg asked ifthe easement has any impact on the taxable value? Attorney Jamnik stated the land is still taxed for whatever it is classified as. Mayor Ristow asked if this is the only pond in the project? Engineer Foertsch replied yes. Councilmember Fogarty stated so it is just the commercial properties to the east that will be draining directly into pond 8? Engineer Foertsch replied yes. Mayor Ristow stated it will be from the Hwy 3 intersection to the golf course. Councilmember Fogarty asked as area 8 develops, we do not know if that will stay in the township or come into the city? Chair Becker stated as area 8 develops it would be up to the land owner and he would have to provide development ponding. Engineer Foertsch stated it is the property owners choice if they request annexation or stay within the township. Councilmember Fogarty asked whether it will continue to drain into pond 8. Engineer Foertsch replied yes. Councilmember Soderberg asked if any of the property owners in area 8 request to be annexed into the city there would be no objection from the town board? Chair Becker stated that is their feeling. Councilmember Soderberg stated so it would be an orderly annexation agreement. Mr. Neal stated no forced annexation. That is their prerogative. Chair Becker stated that is ifthis project goes through. But ifthis project does not go through then we would not like annexation. Councilmember Soderberg asked how would we service those properties if the project does not go through? Chair Becker stated our stance is that if someone comes tomorrow and wants to be annexed we would not allow it until we knew this project is going ahead, so that the City does not annex the corner and not do the project. If anything is going to be annexed the project should be already started. Mayor Ristow stated he thought that had been the agreement from way back. There would be no benefit to anyone to develop without the services. Engineer Mann handed out a draft Joint Powers Agreement. Mr. Neal asked if we stay on this condition do we need a Joint Powers Agreement? Engineer Mann stated he felt there needs to be an agreement. Mr. Neal stated then it will be in black and white. Councilmember Fogarty stated she would feel more comfortable ifthe pond were city property. Attorney Jamnik stated the city would have to get a permanent easement or a fee purchase to put the pond in. Because it is a pond and with the size, the township may want to give it in fee rather than just an easement for a vestige of liability. It would still be on the title ofthe property. Mayor Ristow stated what if it goes with the property owner and he says I don't want to give an easement I want to sell it. Then what happens? Attorney J amnik stated then you would negotiate to buy it. That can be part of the Joint City Council/Castle Rock Town Board Meeting June 23, 2003 Page 7 agreement. Engineer Foertsch asked if the city can own property in the township? Attorney Jamnik stated it is done all the time. Mayor Ristow stated that is a point to share with the constituents when they ask what are you doing with this large amount of money? It is for a project, we would not want to buy land that is not contiguous to the city. Attorney Jamnik stated there are situations where cities will locate an industrial park in a township. It is not uncommon. The main concern for the township, is once we own it, the city has more authority to annex it. Mayor Ristow stated the biggest objection before was the maintenance of the pond. Engineer Mann stated the easement will allow us to do that. Mayor Ristow asked ifthe agreement also addressed fire hydrants for protection for the commercial buildings? Engineer Mann replied that will be looked at in the plan design and will be taken into consideration for the easement. Mr. Garvey asked if pond 8 can be owned by the city and the rest of the development stay in Castle Rock? Attorney Jamnik replied yes. Mr. Garvey then asked if a person can split off a parcel of his property, keep the rest in Castle Rock and sell the rest or donate a portion to the city? Attorney J amnik replied yes, it is a matter of fashioning the proper legal descriptions. Chair Becker stated they are willing to work with the city on the Joint Powers Agreement. Mayor Ristow asked if the township had to take the agreement back to their meeting to endorse it? Chair Becker stated they have looked at it, but it has to be rewritten. Attorney Jamnik stated this is a cost share agreement that was discussed tonight. Mr. Neal agreed this is a cost share agreement where the other would be the City's responsibility and our share would be allowing the City to get easements within the township. Mayor Ristow asked if there was anything in the agreement that would be a problem. Engineer Mann stated there is a lot of cost sharing items in the current agreement. Engineer Mann summarized the discussion. Castle Rock does not have the funds to participate at this time, but they would like to see the project happen and would be willing to help in non-financial ways ifthe City wants to go ahead with the project. The City needs to decide whether they are willing to go ahead with the project based on the idea of picking up the Township costs. Mayor Ristow stated instead of three entities, there would be two, the City and the County. Engineer Mann replied correct, two would be picking up the cost and possibly the state would have some costs. If the City wants to do the project under those terms, the next step would be for the town board and the City to pass the resolutions. Either a joint resolution or two separate ones that say we are going forward with the project. Very soon thereafter would be the Joint Powers Agreement. Mayor Ristow stated it is on our back to get this done by August so we can get this in the CIP. The township has told us what they want to do and we have to decide whether to agree. Mr. Neal stated then just one entity is making the final decision. Councilmember Soderberg stated we still need a resolution from the town board. He asked if the town board would want separate resolutions or a joint resolution. The town board was unsure. Joint City Council/Castle Rock Town Board Meeting June 23, 2003 Page 8 Engineer Mann asked Commissioner Harris if one was better than the other. Commissioner Harris stated he did not know why the City would want a joint resolution. Wouldn't you want the township to act first, telling the City they will not participate in a dollar amount, but would be willing to cooperate with the City? Anything west ofHwy 3 is coming into the City excluding the fairgrounds. That should be in the township's resolution and the City's resolution is one that will be picking up the cost and that is the one the County is interested in. Engineer Mann felt the County needed to see both resolutions. Mayor Ristow stated the costs for the west side would stay the same, the County would pick up their road costs, the property owners would pay for their sewer and water assessment, Highland Circle is still a bare road without curb and gutter. Engineer Mann stated Highland Circle will be done, but will be put back the way it is. Chair Becker asked if the City needed a resolution tonight or make it at the next board meeting and deliver it to the City? Attorney Jamnik stated the proper protocol would be to revise the Joint Powers Agreement so that the entities have an understanding as to how the project will be undertaken, and then fashion a short 1 or 2 page orderly annexation agreement that says after completion ofthe project or as the project is being constructed the city and township agree these parcels will convert to city jurisdiction. When those two agreements are drafted to the satisfaction of the city and the township, then the resolutions, indicating that we are going forward pursuant to these other two agreements, would be in order. This has to be completed by August 1. Attorney Jamnik will draw up the agreements. The township has a meeting July 8. The Orderly Annexation Agreement will state if the project is constructed consistent with the Joint Powers Agreement, then an annexation will be allowed. Engineer Foertsch stated the town board resolution will reference both agreements. Councilmember Soderberg stated he would like to hear Finance Director Roland's input on the finances and how it will affect the city. He has no objection with Attorney Jamnik moving forward with the agreements. Picking up the Township cost is an 11 % increase in cost for the city. Engineer Mann stated Finance Director Roland has reviewed the figures and is confident this will work. The Orderly Annexation Agreement, the Joint Powers Agreement, and the resolution needs to be done by July 8 for the town board meeting. The Council will discuss the city's side. Attorney Jamnik will e-mail the agreements to the Town Clerk and the township attorney. Mr. Garvey asked about digging the pond in the winter and whether de-watering had been figured in. He could not find it on the printout. If de-watering is not done, what is saved? Engineer Foertsch stated it is an estimate. De-watering is part of the excavation. A 10% contingency has been added in to cover some of those things. Joint City CounciVCastle Rock Town Board Meeting June 23, 2003 Page 9 Mr. Neal asked about the wells that are close, whose liability is that? Engineer Foertsch stated that will be dealt with in the construction design. Engineer Mann stated they usually coordinate with the owner to shut the well off and supply water. This will be placed on the July 7 and July 21 Council agendas. MOTION by Neal, second by Lamb to adjourn at 9: 17 p.m. APIF, MOTION CARRIED. MOTION by Soderberg, second by Fogarty to adjourn at 9:17 p.m. APIF, MOTION CARRIED. Respectfully submitted, /' /:/ ,/d ~....cRc:d?-- 7V7u...ekP/J C~thia Muller Executive Assistant