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HomeMy WebLinkAbout06.02.03 Work Session MinutesCITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP FIRE CODE MINUTES June 2, 2003 Mayor Ristow called the meeting to order at 8:35 p.m. Audience: Mayor Ristow, Councilmembers Cordes, Fitch, Fogarty, Soderberg Joel Jamnik, City Attorney; Ed Shukle, City Administrator; Kevin Carroll, Community Development Director; Ken Kuchera, Fire Chief; John Powers, Fire Marshal; Ken Lewis, Building Official; Cynthia Muller, Executive Assistant; Pat Sheehan, Chief State Fire Inspector Michelle Leonard Present: MOTION by Soderberg, second by Cordes to approve the agenda. APIF, MOTION CARRIED. Council adopted the state building code in April 2003. At that time, Chapter 1306 was not included. Prior to 1999 the city code contained Chapter 1306. In 1999 Council repealed that chapter. The opposition was sprinkling of existing buildings and the burden it placed on the owners of those buildings. Now there have been changes in Chapter 1306 which provide more flexibility for cities to adopt it. Mr. Pat Sheehan, State Chief Fire Inspector, gave an overview of sprinkler systems, Chapter 1306, and options staff recommended. Sprinkler systems are the oldest automatic fire suppression system. There has been an increase in technology during recent years. In Minnesota the 1306 provision goes back to the early 1980's. 1306 was a way to address fire protection concerns in rapidly developing outer ring suburbs and redeveloping inner suburbs. The intent was to reduce the thresholds of the building code that required sprinkler systems. The desire was to have sprinklers installed in newly constructed buildings and those undergoing major change in occupancy and renovation. One of the arguments of the past was that there was not enough flexibility for local communities. Over the last 4 or 5 years the 1306 committee has worked very hard to come up with options various communities can use to suit their needs. In sprinkled buildings there has never been a loss of firefighter life. Sprinkler systems have traditionally been for protecting buildings. The positive side is that in sprinkled buildings it reduces loss of life to almost nothing. Residential sprinklers are designed to save lives. 1306 has been redeveloped with all these things in mind. We need to do all we can to encourage sprinkler systems. The code gives us certain thresholds that we can require, but we want to make it feasible for facilities to want to install sprinklers, to get payback on their investment through insurance reductions. Farmington's current ISO rating is 5/9 (5-city, 9-rural). Mr. Sheehan stated 5 is a good rating for cities to have. Sprinkler systems in buildings can significantly improve that over the years. The ISO rating is based on the fire departments ability to fight fire and that affects the homeowner insurance rates along with the business rates. Mayor Ristow stated looking at the options survey, most all the cities, other than Mound which is smaller than Farmington, are triple the population, and are not adopting 1306. Why aren't similar cities adopting this? Is the survey not up to date? Fire Marshal Powers replied the survey is compiled by the Fire Marshal's Association of Minnesota. The most recent edition is Council Workshop Fire Code Minutes June 2, 2003 Page 2 from mid-February. Mr. Sheehan stated it is hard to get people to respond to surveys. Fire Marshal Powers replied Apple Valley has adopted 1306, and Rosemount has a variation of it. Mr. Sheehan stated there is a new provision in 1306 that requires that any city that adopts this within two weeks notifies the state. Mayor Ristow stated he was involved when the city adopted the Uniform Building Code and dropped 1306. We are a city that is business friendly and some ofthe change of occupancies has to be clarified more. There were certain businesses moving out because the code recommended ifthere was a slight change, they had to revise the whole building. It caused a hardship in the businesses and quite a stir in the community. He is for sprinklers, but when safety becomes involved it is in everyone's best interest, but the hardships have to be looked at. Councilmember Cordes stated she believes there was a change of occupancy in one of the units at Town's Edge and because of that change they would have been required to sprinkle the whole building. That would have been a tremendous hardship. Fire Marshal Powers stated that was in 1999 and had to do with the daycare and their expansion. Mayor Ristow stated from what he read in the information, it should not be a hardship and if the water supply was not available, the city would look at that. It was not a bad thing, but it was quite a burden. Some people were thinking to just vacate and let the city go back to a ghost town like it was at one time because of the cost. There were other buildings the city was looking at and owners said they were unable to do this. They would have to leave and go somewhere else. We lost some of the businesses to the neighboring townships. Ifwe are not consistent, they can go across the line and build the same thing with the same operation and not comply. That is not right either. It gives people an option, if they don't like what we are doing here, they will go somewhere else. Mr. Sheehan stated the building code is a state building code. It is applicable throughout the entire state. In the early 1980's, there was a statute that allowed counties outside of the metro area to have referendums to decide if they wanted to have enforcement of the building code. That was a situation of the legislature overriding the rule. There is nothing we can do to prevent that. Mr. Sheehan stated one benefit of sprinklers is that sometimes sprinklers will allow you not to do certain construction features. If you sprinkle the building you do not have to make a box out of a certain area with fire walls just to confine the fire. The biggest thing for a fire department is chasing a fire through a building that has additions. Over the long run sprinklers can be a cost savings. Mayor Ristow stated he read the information provided and it is good analogy. He is 100% for sprinklers. He read where one sprinkler can put out a fire before the fire department gets there. Before we were talking about existing buildings and no one had a problem going into it, if you knew you were going to add on. Installing sprinklers in existing buildings is more costly than constructing new. Mr. Sheehan stated it is also a protection for existing tenants. They are there with the assumption that to some degree their neighbors are not going to cause them any problem. If a tenant moves in with a more hazardous process, now tenant A is at risk, because if tenant B has a fire and there is no sprinkler or separation, tenant A will be out of business if tenant B has a fire. Unfortunately laws are made not to protect us against ourselves, but to protect us against the unsafe acts of others. Mayor Ristow wanted to reiterate that he is not trying to talk down the sprinkling, because he thinks they are great, but it is the existing buildings and homes. The existing code says to put a double fire core sheet rock wall between them. In the information he was reading, it is only a wall and the fire pops out in the attic and Council Workshop Fire Code Minutes June 2, 2003 Page 3 the roof, which are not sprinkled anyway, and that is where the majority of the fires are and can drop down. Putting up the extra cost of the double fire core sheet rock really is not any good either. Mr. Sheehan stated the fire separations will stop a fire, but they will not do anything to put it out. Sprinklers will not only detect the fire, but they will also control the fire, if not put it out completely. The built-in fire separation units work to a point. Building Official Lewis stated fire walls are there to buy time to allow people to vacate. Mayor Ristow asked under this code, if adopted, it says a 16-unit townhouse would require sprinklers because it is over a certain amount of square footage. Would you still require a fire wall between the two if all are joined together? Building Official Lewis replied you still would have a fire wall, but you would need a one-hour separation instead of a two-hour separation. There is still separation there, but not as much. The cost for that will go down which they can put into the sprinkler system and the cost evens out. Councilmember Cordes asked if 16 units means 16 continuous units attached, or 4 units here and there. Fire Marshal Powers replied the units are back to back, under one roof. Councilmember Cordes asked about subpart 3 where it says additions to existing buildings, would it be just the addition that would be required to be sprinkled or the whole building? Fire Marshal Powers replied ifthere is occupant load added to the building, the entire building would have to be sprinkled. Mr. Sheehan stated if the operation now imposes a greater hazard sprinklers would be required. Mayor Ristow asked about City Center where Edina Realty joined next to New Moon. That was an addition. Would that require sprinklers for the whole building? Fire Marshal Powers replied that would have required the whole building, however he chose to put in a two-hour concrete block wall. Edina Realty is actually it's own building. Under 1306 that would go away. They could not put the wall there and call it two separate buildings. Mayor Ristow stated last time it caused so much hardship, we could not get people to expand, and you could not get people to upgrade old buildings because of undue hardship. Councilmember Cordes asked about the Rochon dairy building, ifthey were to add on, would they have to sprinkle the whole building or just the addition, or does it depend on what they use the addition for? If it was just for storage, probably not? Fire Marshal Powers stated 1306 is triggered by the occupant load. If Gossips put an addition on the back for restrooms, it would not increase the occupant load and would not require sprinklers. If they put a banquet hall at the back of the building, then they are doing a major addition. Mr. Sheehan stated the building code already requires that if the addition affects exiting, you have to upgrade the old part to ensure you have a safe exit. You do not want to increase the danger level in the existing portion because of the new addition. Mayor Ristow stated it is not necessarily the addition, but if refurbishing the inside changes the occupancy it triggers sprinklers. For example, the daycare at Town's Edge, where he is a tenant in the building, it was rough on business while the sprinkling system was being installed in the existing building. Fire Marshal Powers stated that was because the daycare expanded within the existing building. Under the current building code, it required the building to be sprinkled by the daycare. At that time the owner decided he would make a business decision to keep the daycare there and install sprinklers or lose the daycare. Mayor Ristow added or shut down the whole building like it was at one time. Fire Marshal Powers stated or the daycare could not have expanded in that particular building. Fire Chief Kuchera stated the sprinkler system has been a tremendous benefit. Mayor Ristow stated he is not criticizing, he is looking at the cost and overall balance between businesses that did this. If we don't, you end up with a dead building sitting there only at the discretion of the landlord, and you have no tenants which is not good. Trying to be business friendly with existing businesses, you could name the ones that left Council Workshop Fire Code Minutes June 2, 2003 Page 4 because of the sprinkling. That was our intent not to bring undue hardship to the people that were coming in wanting to fill the buildings. Fire Chief Kuchera stated we are talking about a countertop business, which used hazardous materials. That is what triggered the need for sprinklers. Mayor Ristow replied he is doing the same thing across our borders and bigger. Are we business friendly, or aren't we? It is a good layout, but in a 2,000 sq. ft. house, ifit is a new house, he could understand it. There are 3-story houses here. Fire Marshal Powers stated we are talking about 3 stories with 16 units. Mayor Ristow replied no, it mentioned 2,000 sq. ft. or above. Councilmember Fogarty read from Chapter 1306 where it states "Group E occupancies with 2,000 or more gross square feet of floor area or with two or more stories in height." Fire Marshal Powers stated that is not residential, that is apartments and townhomes. Building Official Lewis stated there are not currently any 16-unit townhomes. Townhomes with 12 units are the largest being built. Councilmember Fogarty stated she understands that for the reconstructs to get to the requirement of a threshold to require sprinkling systems, you are doing a major reconstruction. The cost is going to be more but not a significant amount for the majority of people we are discussing. There might be a small majority of small businesses that might get caught. Fire Marshal Powers stated when doing a major project, by installing a sprinkling system, they would be able to trade off some of the separation and other costs, such as alarm systems that might not be needed. Mr. Sheehan stated it can reduce the level of interior finish for fire rating, and drop in category. Councilmember Fogarty stated the sprinkler systems have advanced. Usually with advancement the. cost comes down. Mr. Sheehan stated the typical cost is $2.25/sq. ft. There are different standards of sprinkler systems. One is for commercial and there is a residential called 13R, which is for apartment buildings. The BE is for residential. Residential systems are designed for not more than 2 heads to go off in a room. Mayor Ristow stated the new part he does not have a problem with. But everyone has got to understand what goes in the old. The water main may not be big enough, you have to increase the water line to a 12-inch line, you have to have a box for the valves, a special building with heat in it, and a telephone line. It costs a lot of money. For the businesses we have that are not real huge, a smaller business, like a daycare, if you don't have a building owner that is agreeable to do it you are limited to places where you can be. There were a lot of businesses that left here and went to Rosemount, and Lakeville. There are people in this community that wouldn't open a business here. There are no affordable lease spaces in the city because of some of the requirements you have to have. Fire Marshal Powers stated Rosemount does have Chapter 1306, so he did not know if that was a factor. When Mr. Adelman. . . Mayor Ristow interjected saying we are not going back to Mr. Adelman, that is over with and done. You are not going to change that. Mayor Ristow stated he is looking to the future. If we want to be a business friendly Council and city like we are, we have to look and understand what we are implementing and what kind of hardships it will cause. The last time 1306 caused a lot of hardship. There was a lot of chaos and a lot of differences in the city for expanding buildings, existing buildings or new buildings. We have to be very clear and we need to know what we are adopting. Councilmember Soderberg stated he has two concerns. One is what existing buildings will be impacted? He is all for putting them in new construction. What buildings do we have in town now that would be required if they did some sort of remodeling? He also asked about the definition of occupancy change and what type of occupancy change triggers this? Fire Marshal Powers stated a good example is there is a church that will be vacant. It is an A occupancy. If Council Workshop Fire Code Minutes June 2, 2003 Page 5 changed to another use such as a daycare which is E, it would require sprinklers with or without 1306. It may not matter depending on the size of the daycare. Mayor Ristow asked if the state regulates whether it needs to be sprinkled in certain instances, like a daycare? Fire Marshal Powers stated it is in the building code. Councilmember Soderberg asked if we adopt this chapter for the city, that situation is going to happen whether we adopt this or not. For example, the Exchange Bank building, would that renovation require sprinklers? The Antique Store? Duebers? Fire Marshal Powers replied all those buildings are typically sales or mercantile occupancy and will be replaced by those types ofthings. Mayor Ristow stated last time the Exchange Bank building was brought up it was because there was a fire hydrant within 50 feet and that was why that building did not have to be sprinkled. Fire Chief Kuchera did not recall that. Fire Marshal Powers stated the Exchange Bank building is unique in a lot of ways. The upstairs would have to be sprinkled regardless of 1306 because it is above the level of discharge. Mayor Ristow stated the last person said no, because the fire hydrant is in close proximity and the B-2 downtown business district had less requirements than outer areas. Mr. Sheehan stated it might have been in respect to stand pipes in the stairways, which impact the fire departments ability to get into the building to connect the hoses. If the hydrant is close to the building and you can get in with a couple lengths of hose, that will be fine. If the hydrant was not there and the fire department has to string a lot of hose to get inside, the stand pipes are right there to connect to to go on up. The fire code is applicable throughout the state. In some communities, it is enforced by local authorities. Where it is not enforced locally, ifthe state fire marshal is called in, we will enforce the code and if sprinklers are required, we will enforce it. Mayor Ristow stated he hoped the property owner of the Exchange Bank building is aware of that, if they have to go back and run the sprinkler lines for existing businesses. Fire Marshal Powers stated the owner is aware they have to sprinkle the part that is above the level of exit discharge. Councilmember Fitch stated county by county can adopt this. If someone were to build a like building in Castle Rock, would they have to follow this code? Mr. Sheehan stated counties outside of the metro area were allowed to vote no enforcement by referendum. Councilmember Fitch stated if Dakota County is in the metro area, this has been forced on them. Mr. Sheehan believed this was correct, but he would have to check. Councilmember Fitch stated if we build something in Empire or Castle Rock, they technically are supposed to be meeting that code. Is that a fair statement? Mr. Sheehan stated if Farmington is the fire official for that area, they should enforce the same as Farmington. Councilmember Fitch wanted to make sure they are supposed to be following the rules. Mayor Ristow stated surrounding areas do not have water, they have wells. Councilmember Fitch stated he is trying to get a feel for the landscape, because if we as a city provide the fire protection for them, we should have some kind of pull in ensuring they meet those codes or our charge to them would reflect that. Mr. Sheehan stated rural contracts do not always address the code issues. They are paying for basic fire protection, regardless of what they have. Mr. Sheehan stated there is no oversight by the state as far as rural contracts. Mayor Ristow stated if we are going to do something it should be consistent around the area. Mr. Sheehan stated the legislature saw to it that people have that choice. Mayor Ristow asked Building Official Lewis if it would be his duty to say he would not approve occupancy if the code is not met? Building Official Lewis replied yes, within his jurisdiction. Mayor Ristow asked why would the townships allow occupancy if the code is not met? Mr. Sheehan stated it depends on the enforcement. Mayor Ristow stated if there is a plan in place and it is consistent throughout, then you do not have a problem enforcing it. Councilmember Council Workshop Fire Code Minutes June 2, 2003 Page 6 Cordes stated it also comes down to interpretation. Mr. Sheehan stated you cannot be an active building official without being certified. On the fire inspection side, there is no state oversight. Mayor Ristow asked regarding the industrial park, if any of those buildings are sprinkled? Fire Marshal Powers and Chief Kuchera stated all are sprinkled. Mr. Sheehan stated sprinklers are a selling point, especially if a business has a hazardous product. Councilmember Fogarty asked if 1306 would have made the Market Place require sprinklers? Fire Marshal Powers replied yes. If he would have sprinkled up front, he could have saved some money. Mayor Ristow stated it is the balance of the cost of the building, and how much you are paying to lease it versus a bigger city. Fire Marshal Powers stated Mr. Einess asked his tenants if they would be willing to pay more rent for a sprinkled building. They called the insurance company and the difference between rent and insurance savings would have been a wash. Some of the businesses chose to serve alcohol, and that triggered the need for sprinklers. Mr. Sheehan stated in the future, the fire service will be focusing on how drinking and fires do not mix. If a business wants to serve alcohol, sprinklers will be a good thing. Mayor Ristow stated we cannot compare it with a city of 17,000. Big businesses are not going to come here. We have to look out for affordable businesses that can come here. They will leave to get a more affordable lease. Councilmember Fitch asked how many buildings will this affect? Fire Marshal Powers stated a lot of the buildings are sprinkled. It would depend on if they put on additions. If a building is landlocked and cannot put on an addition, it would not be affected. Councilmember Fitch stated if a new business comes in, and does not have the occupancy of the previous owner, there would not be a need to require it. Councilmember Soderberg stated if a building changed to an E use, that is an occupancy change. The square footage mayor may not trigger it. Fire Marshal Powers stated if a building changed to a B (business) occupancy, that would be less ofa hazard than A alcohol) occupancy. In that case it would be a hardship to dig up the street for a less hazardous occupancy. Fire Chief Kuchera asked what buildings that we currently have will have to put in sprinklers? Councilmember Soderberg stated only if there is a change that triggers it. Councilmember Cordes stated a few years ago it was a pretty aggressive move. Mr. Sheehan stated there are options in Chapter 1306 that cities can choose. Councilmember Cordes noted staff put together options they would like to see adopted. After listening to this, she is more comfortable with this. Her major concern was current buildings. Mayor Ristow asked if there are two or three businesses that want to come in that will be a plus for the city and their budget is short, then what? Councilmember Cordes stated that is a business decision they have to make. Mr. Sheehan stated it is reasonable to have a plan. It is not unreasonable to approach a particular business with a phased-in plan. Mayor Ristow stated he is 100% for sprinklers. They are an improvement for safety. It is a hardship that we have to look at. Newly established businesses know what they are getting into. Ifwe have empty buildings, we will have the pressure of the community. Councilmember Soderberg stated without 1306 we cannot require sprinklers in new buildings. Fire Marshal Powers stated it takes the threshold from 8500 - 12,000 sq. ft. depending on the occupancy code, down to 2000 sq. ft. unless it is a daycare. Council Workshop Fire Code Minutes June 2, 2003 Page 7 Fire Chief Kuchera left the meeting at 9:46 p.m.) Councilmember Soderberg stated he is comfortable with adopting 1306. His concerns were the burden that would be placed on existing buildings. Councilmember Fogarty stated she is also comfortable with it. She has a greater concern with new buildings and she cannot see an excuse not to put them in in new buildings. Councilmember Soderberg stated if we do have an existing structure where it becomes a burden, we can find some way of working with them. Mayor Ristow stated he had a few other questions. On the Statement of Need and Reasonableness, number 2 states "certain smaller buildings constructed for the state may now be included in groups requiring sprinklers." Does that mean state or county buildings that were previously owned? Fire Marshal Powers stated this might apply to some buildings on the north shore, where there is no water supply. Mr. Sheehan stated this shows why the state thinks the rules are reasonable and needed. Mayor Ristow asked are they only saying state, county, city? What about City Hall, if someone wanted to come in and it was not sprinkled and wanted a similar use, could that trigger it? Mayor Ristow then asked regarding R3 attached occupancies over 8500 sq. ft. The existing ones would not? He wanted Mr. Sheehan to clarify that. Fire Marshal Powers stated the R3 will be for buildings built from now on. There is a provision under the B option for 16 units instead of 8500 sq. ft. threshold because there are buildings that do meet that. Mayor Ristow asked ifhe bought the building on the comer, is it a change of ownership or occupancy ifhe changed it from what it is? Fire Marshal Powers stated it is still the same footprint and it is still being used for an R3. Mayor Ristow stated so it would not be required to be sprinkled. Mayor Ristow stated he will call Mr. Sheehan to answer some questions. He wanted to make sure in his mind before he approves it, that it will not be a hardship on smaller businesses. This will be brought back to the July 7,2003 Council Meeting to allow time for Council to review the issue and answer any questions. MOTION by Cordes, second by Soderberg to adjourn at 9:57 p.m. APIF, MOTION CARRIED. Respectfully submitted, 7' ...zK!{-d" /r7~~J Cynthia Muller Executive Assistant